I am writing a new blog reflecting today's development and more but wanted to post this as a prelude. Read it and the heated debate that followed. Please chime and continue the debate. PART II coming soon.... http://waltfrasier.blogspot.com/2009/09/health-care-reform-takes-major-blow.html
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NATIONAL HEALTH CARE
Friday, May 8, 2009 at 8:06am
Watching commercial AGAINST National Health Care. Claiming it will take away choice of doctor and have admin dictating what health care I can receive. Well how is that different from now?
A quick point of reference: I grew up a card carrying Republican. Although I consider myself an independent, I leaned right on the political side. Always hated the claim that being a Republican makes you a racist homophobe. So left wing nut claims kept me from becoming a card carrying Democrat. Right wing nut claims kept me from being all that proud. CNN started a new segment WING NUT. Great idea however poorly executed. I hope they really develop it. To many WING NUTS are the loudest talkers. I am louder than all and I sit right (perhaps bad choice of word here) in the middle. And I am sick of the BS manipulation of the truth to lure “undecided” Both sides try to scare us into submission and than chastise the other side for the same dirty politics. I’m done. I continue.
My carrier is telling my wife she cant get a much needed test because it is not life threatening however it is a condition that could lead to cancer. Two years ago a doctor ordered an endoscopy. Recently a new doctor said it would be a good idea to rule out certain conditions. The problem is, as good as medicine is, there is still a lot of educated guessing going on. I know a lot of stories where someone is sick for years. They go through 1000s of tests and failed medical procedures to find some parasite was in there. But without all the tests you cannot fully exercise the process of elimination.
I am assuming that a National Health Care "decider" (NOT BUSH I HOPE!!!) will be less inclined than a Heath Insurance money bag to deny health care based on bottom line. Perhaps not. But a National Plan cannot drop you because you get too expensive.
Health care is such a scam these days. Insurance agents and lawyers have made it so expensive. The more legal threat, the more insurance goes up. The more insurance goes up, the more ambulance chasers milk the system.
The commercial I saw talked about choice. You will loose the choice of health care providers. This is so BS. If you can afford choice now, you will afford choice later. But for those of us that cannot choose, we need a better option. The commercial puts down UK and Canadian programs. But at the rate we are going, we are more likely to match the wonderful Mexican system as more and more people drop beneath the poverty line.
While typing this I see Maria Schriver talking about her new documentary Alzheimer’s Project. On a separate note, she looks like a Klingon. Too much plastic I think. I would love to launch a serious discussion. Free of propaganda. I know - impossible. Any HS Alums actually Doctors with the inside track. Health Insurance Advocates? I assume most of my actor friends are far to the left from myself, but still welcome the comments.
21 Comments posted - I have assigned fake names to repeated posters so you can follow the debate and positions. Otherwise I have left with out author. See the original note on FACEBOOK for these but I did not want to make public without permission.
May 8 at 8:42am by BOB (Name changed to protect the innocent)
how is it different? See the problems with EVERYOTHER Nationalized health care system in the world. Waiting lines for MRI's, cancer drugs not being made available because they're deemed too expensive by the Gov't, lack of doctors due to inadequate pay and over bearing restrictions... As a republican, I'm not against everyone having adequate health, but I am against the restrictions that will be placed on it by the inordiately LARGE Gov't. Besides, how much are you personally willing to give the Gov't so they can mismanage this?
May 8 at 8:45am BIFF (Name changed to protect the innocent)
I lived in the UK for 2 years & had their national health insurance. People in the US suffer if they do not have a good full time job w/benefits. In the UK every person got equal coverage whether all they could do was work part time at a shop or they worked the corp. world. If you lost your job you did not have $1000/mo COBRA bill to cover your family until you became re-employed. Car insurance cheaper -in the event of an accident your insurance company did not have to pay crazy healthcare costs of someone you seriously injured. People were denied coverage due to cost and they fought as hard as they could. Paid out of pocket but not what we do. No easy answer here but I don't believe we'll ever have nationalized health care in US, however we do need a way to look after those who fall between the cracks. We are a wealthy country & all citizens should benefit from the excellent resources available. How to change is the question b/c insurance companies rule the process now.
May 8 at 8:56am
Damn Walt...getting a little deep on a sunny Friday morning but love the thought provoking responses. Best solution: Mutant Healing Factor. "Nuff Said!
May 8 at 8:56am by BOB
We are NOT a wealthy country... Do you see where we're printing more money just to try to "Nationalize" the banks? Have you NOT seen that we're trillions of dollars in DEBT? That's not wealthy... I, for one, don't want the top tax tier to increase like it have in Britain... It's well over 50%... if not over 60%... We will bankrupt our country if we try to provide everything for everyone. What happens then when the country is too poor to defend itself? Or when the Chinese call in our loans? Are we going to sell Alaska and Hawaii just to try to pay down some debt? We have social programs in place NOW to help those who fall between the cracks. The problem? Pride, fraud, abuse of the system...
May 8 at 9:19am
yeah well I hope that the stupid prilosec will hold down the problem for now.
May 8 at 9:42am by BIFF
BOB, we gotta pray the Chinese never call in the loans. But then since we are not out there buying as much crap they don't have as much $$$ either now do they? Seems they are feeling the pinch as well. Again, I don't think National Healthcare is the way but the first thing my doctor asks when deciding my treatment or what tests to send me to is, "What insurance do you have?" it leads me to believe the care I get is based on the insurance since the tests etc are so expensive. There does need to be revision here. We are still a country with a lot of resources and if you have ever been to a third world country you will realize how good we have it, we just need to fix it so that even if my health insurance is lesser I get the tests I need to stay alive. Have you received a bill for hospital and seen that the insurance company paid 60% and that is OK with hospital. Have you then tried to pay only 60% of your hospital bill and what happens then? Not so good.Its all out of whack.
May 8 at 9:47am by BRAD (Name changed to protect the innocent)
It's easy BOB. The current system is bankrupting the people that pay for their own insurance and the companies that pay for their employees insurance. We currently pay the MOST For the WORST healthcare in any industrialized nation, and still well over 40% of our population goes without. Oh, and the insurance industry is designed to NOT pay for the treatment people need. What is so hard to understand? The healthcare/pharmaceutical/insurance industries as well as the banking system catastrophe are perfect examples of why PRIVATIZATION and DEREGULATION for essential services is a terrible idea. Keep listening to the comedians on the Fox news/Jerry Springer/hate show though, that'll make it all better... They're the authorities on everything.
May 8 at 9:51am by BOB
The 60% of the bill that's paid by the insurance is within the AGREEMENT the hospital/Doctors/Urgent Care facilities entered into. It's a 'bulk purchase' agreement if you will... Nothing wrong with that in any fashion. One can even argue that it keeps healthcare premiums DOWN... We can't hope or pray that the Chinese never calls in our loans... Why? that's not a pro-active approach to solving a problem. Standing in the rain without a raincoat and hoping you don't get wet makes about as much sense. You can't spend your way out of debt no more than you can drink yourself sober or eat your way thin... Our Gov't needs to work to effectively pay down our debt... As a society, we're wealthy and technologically advanced, etc... But as a Gov't, we are POOR and we as taxpayers are enabling them by allowing them to be continually voted back into office. We, the People, need to hold our politicians accountable for their spending. It's reckless and damaging.
May 8 at 9:56am
Wow BRAD, I don't know you but it really sounds like you got bit as a child... You want to discuss the banking situation? Well, take a look back to the mid-90's when the Community Action Commitees strong armed the banks to provide 'affordable' mortgages to people who can't afford them so the bank can build another branch in the area... Then take a look at how Fannie and Freddie were run in the ground while those on the left side of the aisle said everything was just fine... Perhaps you should take off your Marxist hat and try looking at things at bit more rationally...
May 8 at 10:01am by BRAD
As an analogy, the way I understand it the president inherited a sinking ship. It is an emergency situation and getting worse. The spending We're doing is an attempt to plug some of the holes in the ship so the crew can bail water out of the hull. If you recall he was not in favor of bailouts or buying the banks. He said last week he's not in favor of buying car companies either. He's got enough on his plate without trying to run a car company too! Oh, but of course he's a socialist according to hate radio talk show hosts. It's funny. They're the only ones who claimed he was the Messiah and that everything he touches is perfect. The rest of us are patiently waiting to see if his plan works.
May 8 at 10:04am by ME - YUP really ME obvious by the typos....
True. We need to be more responsible on spending. And that is the reason i have always stayed to the right of center. But again, my problem stems from hearing all of the arguments against National Health care - Corruption, Long Lines, Poor Care - if you have ever been to a Clinic in this country it is no better. For 8 years Bush told us to go to the emergency room. My wife got very sick and lost health insurance when she had to change jobs. So she went to the emergency room when she got sick. A few times. Often times spending all night waiting to see a doctor while in incredible pain. Like I said before, suffering from some yet to be diagnosed digestive issue. The way I see it - Health is Tangible. Money is a made up system that we put way to much emphesis on. Debt is a form a slavery geniously manipulated by a powerful few.If China wants there money, seriously come and get. If america were under real attack, we will always have the means to get it done. Money or no money.
May 8 at 10:07am - I CONTINUE
All that being said. I am not necessarily a PRO NHC system. i merely wish to point out the Hypocracy in the arguments being made. Mike at least has some intelligible reasoning. I suppose the marketing geniouses for the WING NUTZ assume enough Americans are dumb followers. Kool-Aid anyone....
May 8 at 10:13am BRAD
Wow BOB. Name calling is pretty lame. I thought you had a good point or two and was willing to have a real discussion with you. Too bad.Have a nice day.
May 8 at 1:08pm BILL (Name changed to protect the innocent)
BOB, your point about the CAC has some merit, but you can't lay the blame entirely at the feet of those of us who lean to the left. Yeah, there was a mistake there, but it isn't as if the right pushed that hard to control it. Look, the GOP had at least 6 years of totally running the country and the issue was never resolved. Why? For the same reason why the Democrats never pushed on it at the time....it benefited them not to regulate. Walt, my dad just had surgery on his heart (he's ok) but one of things his coverage won't cover was the ride to the hospital in an ambulance. How do you get coverage for having major surgery, but not for the ambulance? Crazy...
May 8 at 2:20pm by BOB
I can't fault any private individual, right or left, with what happens inside the Fed... In the past 2+ years, with a Dem Congress, this country has gone futher into debt. The current admin may have inherited a sinking ship in the Economy, but it is also grossly wasting our money. Giving BILLIONS to Chrysler and GM only to allow them to go into bankruptcy, when that wasn't an option to begin with. It's time that the citizens demand more from those we elect to office. It's time we demand that they stop trying to grow Gov't and produce and enabling nanny state. We don't need the Gov't to provide everything for us. If it would stop at Nationalized Health Care, fine... But it won't. Everything this admin puts out comes with fine print. Faust has the wrong idea, let's learn from that.
May 8 at 3:37pm More from BOB
In case you all have any doubt that this Administration wants to keep everything, even State Law, included under the thumb of the Fed, check this out... http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/08/local/me-health-cuts8
U.S. threatens to rescind stimulus money over wage cuts
The Obama administration threatens to rescind billions in stimulus money if Gov. Schwarzenegger and lawmakers do not restore wage cuts to unionized home healthcare workers. By Evan Halper
May 08, 2009
May 8 at 3:59pm BIFF
I thought this was about healthcare. Sure its part of a bigger picture but we've gone off the rails. Healthcare needs to be fixed to give everyone access to better care and the gulf between those who have good coverage and good care and those who do not continues to widen. What are all those people who lost jobs this year doing for coverage? The families and people with pre-existing health conditions? So lost the job and so go bankrupt due to medical bills? That will get the country going again, more bankruptcy. Walt's wife is a good example of someone who was out of work that could have used some decent coverage rather then sitting around ER's. We have the means within our system and there has to be some way to work it out, how that is I do not know but there has to be a way. Any new Pres. would have had to take radical action to try to solve the radical situation we are in, one which the departing party had 8 years to try to avert if they had any foresight whatsoever.
May 8 at 8:35pm
Good job Walt. Is your status for tomorrow morning going to be about abortion? :) And by the way, the Chinese will NEVER call our loans. They are an export economy and the U.S. is the biggest consumption economy. They need us to survive. And to further add my two cents, our healthcare system sucks. We pay way more per capita than any other industrialized nation, and don't get better results for what we pay. The system is cumbersome, managed care makes things worse, drugs cost way more than other countries. and any Republican that wants to bitch about Democrat spending must have the wool pulled over their eyes from the "don't tax but spend anyway" Bush administration. there - had to get that in.
May 9 at 9:06pm by BECK (Name changed to protect the innocent)
I won't get into the ethical discussion about assuming that you are entitled to the fruits of another man's labor through force, so I will address the pragmatic aspects of a socialized system. Please inform me of a country that has better healthcare than the USA. Why do I regularly meet people who are here for surgeries that their home countries will not cover? http://www.facesofgovernmenthealthcare.com/ has some good stories, but I know plenty of people personally who I have met who came here for cancer treatment, heart surgery, and elective surgeries like knee or hip replacement. I also know wonderful doctors who fled Canada to the US because they were not allowed to respecialize under a socialist system.The only problems with our system is that it is 75% socialized already, and even private citizens expect dollar-for-dollar third-party paid insurance (they want the private insurers to function like a gov't entitlement).
May 9 at 9:09pm BECK
The solution is to get Washington out of the insurance business. Allow mandate-free insurance policies, purchasing insurance across state lines, and give me the same tax treatment as an individual that a company gets when buying a policy. And in many ways, we spend more in America on treatment because there is more to be had. Do you know the wait for dialysis in some of these countries, or the age limit? "Ethicists" are debating the cost of keeping babies alive who will be "burdens to the system".Put it more simply---ever requested clarification from the IRS on something? Ever dealt with the post office? Do you want those people running your healthcare?
May 9 at 9:12pm BECK Part III
One more spin---libertarians argued with leftist-Republicans about the patriot act. They said, "Sure, you trust George Bush, but would you trust Hillary with the same power?" We are now living that mistake as Obama has those powers we trusted to George Bush.So let's turn the argument around---what if Obama isn't always the President? Sure ... Read MoreAcorn will run elections from now on, and it is likely a generation will pass before a Republican or even moderate Democrat is ever elected, but just suppose another George Bush is elected? Do you trust George Bush to make healthcare decisions for you? Would Halliburton just get a no-bid contract to provide it?It amazes me that the generation that tried to foment so much distrust of the government and hatred of America wants to trust them with decisions of life and death.
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